Comments on: Why Do Cycle Rates Vary Across English Cities and Boroughs? http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/ Cycling info - advice and tips Fri, 20 Dec 2013 10:22:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.8 By: David Hughes http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/comment-page-1/#comment-113580 Mon, 22 Oct 2012 05:03:20 +0000 http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/?p=6154#comment-113580 I don’t think cycling is normally an economic choice. Most cyclists I find are usually middle class and could afford a car. It is purely a lifestyle choice I think, in much the same way some eat organic. I usually find people on lower incomes usually use motorised transport and public transport. This could explain a north, south divide (more cities in the south having higher cycling rates). Having said that I know people who live less than a mile away from my work in the south and there are still many of them who drive to work.

It may be a sweeping generalisation and with no evidence, just what I have observed.

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By: Hurumph http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/comment-page-1/#comment-109860 Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:31:51 +0000 http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/?p=6154#comment-109860 Thank-you for this; I see I didn’t really understand the correlation/causality argument, but do now and am better off for that. I have been guilty of it in the past.
The upshot of what you say, and of Tejvan’s article, is that we persuade the government to greatly improve cycling facilities to make it safer, ideally through separating cyclists from motorised traffic, a la Dutch. Our biggest lobby group, the CTC, doesn’t seem to be on side and has prioritised education etc. How do we change that and through them, the government? Of course there are many other cycling groups that will lobby with authority.
Is it a matter of writing to our MPs or do we need to see an increase in deaths before something is done? (I’m not offering to mow down a few cyclists in my car for the greater good of cyclist generally)

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By: zchug http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/comment-page-1/#comment-109697 Wed, 10 Oct 2012 23:54:59 +0000 http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/?p=6154#comment-109697 I’ve just started cycling after a gap of thirty years or so. Perhaps it’s not PC to say so, but surely there is a class/ethnicity aspect to cycling rates – not just based on income differences?

On a related issue, shouldn’t “responsible”, mature cyclists make a point of cycling with due caution on pavements by busy roads where there are very few pedestrians? In Japan, it is the norm to cycle alongside pedestrians.

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By: tejvan http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/comment-page-1/#comment-109207 Tue, 09 Oct 2012 12:21:52 +0000 http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/?p=6154#comment-109207 I’m sure hills put a few people off, though with the right gears most people should find a city like Sheffield OK.

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By: Tim http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/comment-page-1/#comment-109054 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 21:52:45 +0000 http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/?p=6154#comment-109054 I’ll be honest and say I didn’t click every link on the page and hadn’t expected a “brochure” to be the place where statistical arguments could be found. You could see that as an oversight on my part. Thank you for pointing it out.

I quite like a lot of what that document says. In particular I like the recognition that we need to consider potential cyclists as well as existing cyclists (which often doesn’t happen). And the clear recognition that it is, to a large degree, fear which stops those people cycling. It recommends slowing traffic in some circumstances as a way to improve the environment for cycling, as the Dutch do – I already mentioned this seems like an area where the CTC and everyone else agree.

But, again, for some reason it stops short (again) of mentioning separating bikes from big lorries (and the rest) on busy roads – despite that being a key Dutch policy. Instead the CTC seem to want to change behaviour with training and marketing. Plus this vague idea of “eradicating the disproportionate risk presented by large vehicles,”(but no mention of how).

Sorry, digressing again. Back to the matter in hand. A few figures with incomplete references indicating that some places with more cyclists have fewer KSIs leave me unconvinced. Especially when two of the potential best examples are the Netherlands and Copenhagen, which have already been debunked as they’ve had (relatively) huge investment in safer infrastructure. There’s no consideration of the direction of the correlation, or of confounding variables. I’m not saying there’s nothing in it. It would be nice if it was true. I’ve plotted the data from the CTC’s appendix b and you can see the correlation. But if you’re going to campaign on something or base a policy on it you want to know you’re right, rather than go with intuition and hope. By the CTC’s own argument earlier in the document, people will commute more where it feels safer and less where it’s scary. And safer infrastructure has been shown to work where SiN hasn’t (at least to my satisfaction). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

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By: Jenson http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/comment-page-1/#comment-109044 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 21:10:02 +0000 http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/?p=6154#comment-109044 Personally, I live in Sheffield, and I think it has a lot to do with the hills in this area. When i started getting back into cycling from a point of no fitness, getting out in the Peak District required a good deal of effort. Not bad once you’ve passed a certain fitness level, but I’m sure it would put people off, or cause them to give up after only a short time. Only my opinon though :-)

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By: Hurumph http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/comment-page-1/#comment-108992 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 16:47:57 +0000 http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/?p=6154#comment-108992 I’m confused by this, Steve: you complain of schoolboy errors then say there are no links to evidence. Does the evidence in the link to the http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Campaigns/0905_SiN_full_rpt.pdf not count as evidence?

Seems reasonable. Or is it mistaking correlation for causality?

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By: Tim http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/comment-page-1/#comment-108945 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:03:23 +0000 http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/?p=6154#comment-108945 It’s Tim. And unfortunately that seems to be another link to a page with no evidence and no links to any.

Just recently the CTC have been getting some grief for being in a bit of a muddle about what might make cycling more popular in the UK.

( http://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/is-the-ctc-helping-or-hindering-bike-use-in-the-uk/ )

They argue that they were the first to know about Dutch style infrastructure, and are in favour of it, but then they put segregated cycle paths at the bottom of their infamous “hierarchy of provision” and the relevant pages on their website have sections dedicated to “What’s wrong with off-carriageway provision?”.

Some of their campaigning seems to concentrate on the low-hanging-fruit – i.e. trying to change behaviour with mantras like “safety in numbers”, and “everyone play nicely”, despite the lack of evidence that much good will come of it.

I say all this as a paid up member. They are also helping raise the profile of utility cycling, campaigning for cycling to school, and campaigning for lower speeds (with Sustrans), which is all great to see. But I hope everyone can agree on what Dutch-style infrastructure actually means, and be clear about it!

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By: tejvan http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/comment-page-1/#comment-108931 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 11:55:00 +0000 http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/?p=6154#comment-108931 Yes. Maybe I should get Virgin to ‘name’ by blog as best cycling blog :)

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By: tejvan http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/6154/cycling/why-do-cycle-rates-vary-across-english-cities-and-boroughs/comment-page-1/#comment-108930 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 11:53:54 +0000 http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/?p=6154#comment-108930 Thanks for comments Steve. Quite interesting. I guess I was thinking of something like
http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=5225 for safety in numbers. But, like many things can be hard to prove.

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